tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post3205216229261984183..comments2023-07-27T15:13:07.248-07:00Comments on Covenant Communities: Are They Cults?lisa a.http://www.blogger.com/profile/10590153207286704524noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-37161512835576272942017-10-29T07:29:14.547-07:002017-10-29T07:29:14.547-07:00Actually I do moderate! I don't know what has ...Actually I do moderate! I don't know what has happened to peoples' posts as I post everything that has to do with covenant communities. It must be an error that I don't get to see all of the posts. I don't add anything anymore more myself but I do appreciate there are others who are interested and still post.<br /><br />Best to you all!<br /><br />Lisa A.lisa a.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10590153207286704524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-9366599220258639822017-10-28T11:16:22.074-07:002017-10-28T11:16:22.074-07:00Perhaps what was both confusing and ominous was th...Perhaps what was both confusing and ominous was the drive to make me "repent" for pride, lack of respect for authority, and detraction, while the men persecuting me were guilty of adultery, fornication, and lying. Still, no matter how much evil they committed they were still godly....Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933776086565764613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-25463439952186795032017-10-27T09:01:45.952-07:002017-10-27T09:01:45.952-07:00Hi, Todd Bass. Since there is no moderator to this...Hi, Todd Bass. Since there is no moderator to this blog, what you posted is not dropped for being problematic. There must be an error.Adrianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858410143687231865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-85307874547894585892017-10-26T09:48:35.852-07:002017-10-26T09:48:35.852-07:00I have wondered this alsoI have wondered this alsoAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933776086565764613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-70749272209807886002017-10-26T07:11:31.011-07:002017-10-26T07:11:31.011-07:00Some of my last comments were never posted. Is th...Some of my last comments were never posted. Is there a problem with the content or is this just an error?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02088236963423983172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-91994500447255057092017-10-19T07:17:59.047-07:002017-10-19T07:17:59.047-07:00I have battled so much confusion just simply atten...I have battled so much confusion just simply attending church with these individuals and in membership with the homeschool co-ops. Certain people are given a disproportionate amount of power that would otherwise barr them from other places in society. Yet, because of the backing of prominent people in these groups claims of seeing angels, the Virgin Mary, and having God speak through their faculties proved to be big commodities. My children and I are separated as a result of this insanity that remains unchallenged by the diocese of Lansing/DetroitAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933776086565764613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-79497823996211120732017-10-15T14:52:11.937-07:002017-10-15T14:52:11.937-07:00Do any of my comments ring familiar? If so, in w...Do any of my comments ring familiar? If so, in what way? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933776086565764613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-35862937822140760132017-10-15T07:21:32.704-07:002017-10-15T07:21:32.704-07:00"Anonymous said...
Jason, I agree with some o..."Anonymous said...<br />Jason, I agree with some of your comments and would like to apologize to the Community and Greg Gavrilides. He did his best while he was there and so did the Community."<br /><br />I would suggest that you read up on the exploits of Greg Gavriledes before hastening to judgement. Documents released from the State of Michigan via a Freedom of Information Act request indicated that Gavriledes was unable to be reinstated as a psychologist because of his sexual exploitation of single and married women while the leader of the Work of Christ. These documents are online at https://www.scribd.com/document/341868469/The-Work-of-Christ-Covenant-Community-And-Their-Troublesjohnflahertymahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06732816592037435591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-54003651569799057252017-10-15T06:45:44.925-07:002017-10-15T06:45:44.925-07:00Jason, in the service of God and Christ I have lea...Jason, in the service of God and Christ I have learned the "good intentions aren't good enough." The love of Christ is not exhibited by shunning and slandering those who voluntarily left a CovCom because of the corruption they experienced.Todd Bsssnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-25541391152226457002017-10-15T06:33:30.435-07:002017-10-15T06:33:30.435-07:00Jason Koval, You accuse Anonymous of slanderous co...Jason Koval, You accuse Anonymous of slanderous comments and an attempt to "justify themselves." I would like to know where are the documents and published statements that repudiate the crimes of the past (yes, crimes!). What is the current policy regarding headship and submission. In the past the teachings were clearly heretical (comparing the relationship among the three persons of the Trinity with the personal head and the submissive member). Furthermore it was clearly taught that even if the head made a mistake, etc., if the member submitted anyway that God would bless it! What diabolical and ridiculous teaching! Please prove that real change, as opposed to the excuse (Oh, we don't do those things anymore), is now in place. Where are the open apologies and repentance by the current leaders (some of whom were leaders that taught the stuff you say has change. These days some people are not going to be easily intimidated by the threats and manipulations that were routine in the past (and in your case, the present). How was it possible that the headship by a coordinator could direct many women (both single and married) into having sex with him? And in the case of the Work of Christ, the silly "food teachings" that were imposed and "pastored" is another cultic sign. The "men's and women's roles" teachings are too rigid by many miles - resulting in the imposed humiliation of any man who went jogging with his wife (How terrible and wimpy he must be!) Jason, I am not impressed with the so-called changes in policies that were exceedingly cultic and the "fake prophecies" that backed up the system. Where is the public record of changes? They always denied the "arranged marriages" in the past even while they did it. What is the evidence in the present that they are telling the truth now? Is your attitude that people who have been hurt or actually had their lives ruined should just "move on" and let the Cultic Christians continue to do their thing? Remember, that "you can fool some of the people all the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." I am sure that many of the people in the WOC "love Jesus." I believe that you are included in number. However, the WOC has a bad record (as do virtually all of the Covenant Communities) of living in the freedom of Christ as opposed to a secretive cult.Todd Bassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-3609603302298193612017-10-14T07:18:14.414-07:002017-10-14T07:18:14.414-07:00It seemed irregular to punish someone for an argu...It seemed irregular to punish someone for an argument and pride but not for adultery, fornication, lying, seduction while married. This is what I experienced. Pretty convenient Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933776086565764613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-49867620418382056642017-10-14T05:56:28.011-07:002017-10-14T05:56:28.011-07:00Any more personal experiences shared within the co...Any more personal experiences shared within the context of anonymity would be appreciated Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933776086565764613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-35361445758171536902017-09-24T17:57:49.749-07:002017-09-24T17:57:49.749-07:00Jason, I agree with some of your comments and woul...Jason, I agree with some of your comments and would like to apologize to the Community and Greg Gavrilides. He did his best while he was there and so did the Community. I have no hard feelings for anyone. Your comments are quite harsh. It shows me that if you do indeed reflect the new Community that there is still a rigid, strict approach to people rather than forgiveness. Your attempt to judge what is in our hearts is most disconcerting. What they experienced can't be changed and trying to silence and slam those who were broken won't help. Isaiah 42:3 "a bruised reed he will not break and a dimly burning wick he will not quench". Please help these people heal by praying for them. You weren't there so you can't know what these people lived through. Showing the love of Christ will. Otherwise, you are no better than the person you are criticizing. By the way, there are multiple anonymous comments posted here meaning there are several people posting. Can you maybe see it in your heart to forgive and pray for the healing of those who were hurt? We are all on this journey together and growing in our walk with Him. Please don't take it beyond that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-15967064559055389102017-03-30T06:29:57.555-07:002017-03-30T06:29:57.555-07:00Thanks for sharing your story. Sadly I can relate ...Thanks for sharing your story. Sadly I can relate all too well. Still suffering a lot from my experiences. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-69456575721302665342017-02-03T09:05:42.475-08:002017-02-03T09:05:42.475-08:00To the "Anonymous" person. You say the ...To the "Anonymous" person. You say the WOC is still about mind control. You say all kinds of slanderous and inflammatory things. You have been hurt, and you have seen Covenant Community at its worst - when there were very serious problems. Leaders were "out of control" in their "over-control" of people. They preyed on truly humble and holy people who were vulnerable and searching for God. These leaders will be judged very harshly I think at the final judgement. There has been a huge change in the leadership approach since those days, and as a member of the Work of Christ I do not defend any of that stuff. But it is very hurtful for you to spew forth all kinds of negative things as if things are still the way they were. If you took the time to "come and see" as someone said, things are very different. The WOC is not without our problems and issues - an attitude of spiritual superiority and favoritism within the leadership is sometimes evident at certain levels, as well as a resistance to ideas that are not within the current consensus of the body of coordinators, is a challenge I think all groups have which are subject to the influences of the twin challenges of human frailty and character imperfections that are still in the process of reformation in Christ - none of us is perfect and none of us claims to be - however the egregious errors of the past are no more. I also know Steve Clark and he is a truly humble, loving and wise man who continues to love and serve God with all his heart - there is no guile in him. If you think that then you do not know him. I think that you are "anonymous" says a great deal about you - and the credibility of all your statements is really minimal when cloaked by anonymity. Why not identify yourself and let those whom you continue to attack and slander discuss these things with you. By remaining "anonymous" you continue to let sin and wrongdoings of the past fester within you. One more thing - someone was talking about how they went through the trash and found all kinds of papers with all kinds of old "rules" and "handbook" kinds of things in them - just why do you think your parents were pitching them into the trash? I think they were purging the things that they (and the particular community) knew were in serious error. Someone else mentioned Rick Comstock as an old-school leader, etc., well nobody has been a perfect leader, and Rick himself would be the first to say so, if you really know him as I do. Folks you can air your old dirty laundry and that of the Work of Christ and other communities, but just think about whom you are really serving by doing so. Are you trying to "help" others or are you really just trying to justify yourself? I for one have an ongoing sort of up-and-down relationship with the Work of Christ as a committed member - but one thing I know for sure - we love Jesus and we do our best to know, love and serve Him. We do that to the best of our abilities with only the best of intentions to spread God's love to the world. This is and has always been an imperfect process carried out by the earthen vessels that humans are.Jason_at_Galactichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11525619083970807885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-2339951978151191642017-02-02T12:56:53.092-08:002017-02-02T12:56:53.092-08:00to Bill Baer's gay friend....
my name is Tom G...to Bill Baer's gay friend....<br />my name is Tom Grimm and I was an underway covenant member of LOG from 1975 to 1978<br />if you are on Facebook there is a group to share your experiences with....<br />https://www.facebook.com/groups/254976977856577/Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08980118454228007544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-15741909627114849902016-08-19T09:36:07.597-07:002016-08-19T09:36:07.597-07:00Can someone please tell me if my posting will be p...Can someone please tell me if my posting will be published? Lisa KreisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933776086565764613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-35869539218468111682016-08-18T06:32:43.626-07:002016-08-18T06:32:43.626-07:00May I speak with you about my experience? Kreis.li...May I speak with you about my experience? Kreis.lisa8@gmail. Com. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933776086565764613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-91340044133081019812016-08-17T09:31:17.394-07:002016-08-17T09:31:17.394-07:00Part 2 of 2:
. Dcn Daniel Foley was put in charge ...Part 2 of 2:<br />. Dcn Daniel Foley was put in charge of this alleged investigation which proved to only feed the Diocese information that prevented a law suit. The outcome of the investigation proved myself to be the problem according to Dcn Dan. I had a witness of a woman that he repeatedly spoke to about sex. Yet I was the problem. From the point Ken's wife Patty, excluded me from another homeschool group that she was in charge of. Father Ed volunteered to "get to the bottom of this," calling people, constantly calling/emailing me. I later learned from the staff at CTK that Father Ed told a few people that he thought that a satanic ritual was performed on me which was the root of all of this and that I was not mentally stable. Later a nun told me that Father Ed was in love with me, I must be careful. I was so thoroughly confused as members of CTK as well as the communities listed above began to avoid me. I sensed that driving forces such as Elitism along with extreme religious beliefs were at the root of those who both alienated me as well as drove my children away from me. Each person seem to fear that they would be in the hot seat if they admitted that any of these individuals were wrong. Also, I believe that everyone thought that each individual that I had an issue with had Divine experiences that most do not have. Each individual (except Dcn Dan) claimed to regularly speak with The Blessed Mother, see Warrior Angels, and operate in the gifts of The Spirit-especially Prophecy. Ken, often speaks in the first person of God. Sadly, I found Father Ed to have lied at least 4 times.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933776086565764613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-77366731249774033572016-08-17T09:31:03.836-07:002016-08-17T09:31:03.836-07:00I would appreciate any help processing an involvem...I would appreciate any help processing an involvement with the Ann Arbor community that connected myself and children to Word Of God, Word Of Life, Sword of the Spirit, through membership at the Christ The King. This actually destroyed my family in ways in which I am still baffled about. I came into the the Church through Christ The King. It was just one month later that I took my children leaving an abusive marriage with 4 children and no family support. We moved to a an affordable community in Ypsilanti where my neighbors were members of at least one or more of these groups. The people of each group rallied around our family with provisions on every level. Some of these individuals would always remain stellar Christians. Many, I would discovered were not. I had no way of evaluating the cost that each provision that would amount to but eventually I would become enslaved. The first hiccup of trouble came while attending CTK prayer meetings. A man from Argentina began to follow myself and other women around. I discovered that he had lost a Catholic wife and two children to a serious porn addiction. This man named Daniel, was teaching classes at CTK. When I reported his behavior I was told by a Deacon I was shut down with an admonishment to consider my own sin. This man was still married. I then sought the support of Ken Cousino (a prominent figure at CTK who attended Daniel's classes). I did not know that Ken was great friends with Daniel, as Ken assured me not to ever speak with this naive deacon that was once his house mate but let him handle it. At Ken's suggestion I called him one week later. Ken asked me why I called. He then said that he spoke to the deacon that he warned me not to speak with who assured him that Daniel was a good guy. I was furious! I called Ken after speaking with some friends to tell him that I was angry and he put Daniel on the phone to mock me. Anyway, Daniel moved in with a woman young enough to be his granddaughter although community members offered to take her in. I reported Ken to the head Deacon at CTK-Daniel Foley. During this time I worked at a homeschool community in which Ken was on the board. I had an argument with the Administrator of this group as many did. I called her priest who confirmed that she was trouble. This priest called Father Ed of CTK to let him know that Rita the Administrator was trouble to many. I sought this support because both Ken and Rita kicked my children and myself out of the homeschool group. During this time I discovered Ken lying at least 3 different times. I also discovered a man dressed up as a priest at CTK that recruited young women into an order that did not exist. Father Ed recommended this man to me claiming that he knew him very well. This imposter also claimed to be creditionaled as a psychiatrist. He was neither a priest or a doctor. Father Ed did nothing about this. Anyway, I was really furious as I drove to the Diocese of Lansing to open up an investigationAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933776086565764613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-78199514935613264882016-08-16T20:42:10.272-07:002016-08-16T20:42:10.272-07:00(Continued from previous post because apparently I...(Continued from previous post because apparently I wrote to much for one post)<br /><br />There was a clear hierarchy within the community, and "guidance" was given with a no questions asked attitude. If you were disobedient it was likely just the devil tempting you. Men were the clear head of everything. There was an expectation that the father was the head of the household and should be respected because of that. (Something that damaged my relationship with my father and led to several abusive romantic relationships in my teens) <br /><br />One reason that I truly believe POP to be a cult is there was far less actual doctrine and religious teachings as there were community practices. In fact the community, meetings, worship sessions, etc. became the main priority. <br /><br />There was a secretive element to everything. Outsiders may be welcomed in partially, but those who had a covenant with the community (which might take years to attain) were the only true members. There was a great deal of mistrust about anyone not within the community. <br /><br />There were strict standards for modesty, behavior, and masculinity/ femininity. <br /><br />There were often long, intense prayer sessions involving tongues, dramatic movements, dispelling of "demons", and the laying on of hands. these occurred even for very young children. <br /><br />Punishment for children was often severe. Parents were directed in how to discipline and raise their children (something my Mother later told me). I know some of you may question whether this was just my family but it is actually something I witnessed more in others then my own. <br /><br />Based on flashbacks and early memories I believe there was physical and sexual abuse happening on a smaller but still noticeable scale in some families. <br /><br />There was an expectation for children to remain in the community for their entire lives (one of the reasons there were so many programs for young adults). Something I noticed at a young age is that the other children who went away for college or just to get away often were simply moved to other branches of POP to maintain some level of control over them. In the same way we would occasionally have young adults stay with our community for a few months to years. I never really felt that I would be able to leave. <br /><br />I know everyone's story varies, but I think the most powerful testament to POP's cult qualities was in the story of when my family chose to leave the group. Although the members had been an integral part of my life for over 12 years, after leaving the group absolutely no one would speak to our family. Suddenly all my friends and the adults in my life (who all still lived within a block or two of where I lived) would barely acknowledge us. <br /><br />My parents warned my siblings and I of this before they formally let everyone know that we were choosing to leave. My Mom tried to reach out to several of her friends in the group to continue friendships, but she was shunned completely. This is not something that any other normal prayers group would even dream of doing. <br /><br />At the time it was hard for me, but looking back I am so glad that we left. My parents had finally come to terms with the misguided things that were happening at a higher level in the community, and they knew it was the right thing to leave. <br /><br />It was hard to transition out of the group, and it's only years later, still often finding psychological scars from POP, that I feel comfortable sharing my experience. For years I hid it and to this day almost no one in my life besides my immediate family knows anything of this. I do not blame my parents for their involvement with the group. They both "found Jesus" through the community and it just took them a while to realize the mess that they had slowly fallen into. What I wrote today only partially covers what I experienced and honestly skims over some of the darker elements. I hope at least a few of you find my story useful and may be able to relate to my experiencesMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-53302480616463345902016-08-16T20:41:27.820-07:002016-08-16T20:41:27.820-07:00It has taken me many months of reading and re-read...It has taken me many months of reading and re-reading the comments on this post before I've mustered the bravery to add my story. Some of these comments have nearly brought me to tears. <br /><br />I cannot speak to any other groups than POP (although my parents met in a house for young adults in Sword of the Spirit in which there were many attempts at arranging marriages from the leadership). I also must acknowledge that while POP does have a hierarchy of leadership, different communities were more extreme than others and some may have exhibited less cult-like behavior. <br /><br />My early childhood was spent in POP, fully immersed in the community. I may not have been witness to the politics and decisions that occurred at a higher level, but my entire childhood experience centered around POP, and I feel that I can speak to the life of a child in this type of situation. <br /><br />It was only until years later that I realized the profound negative impact those early childhood experiences had on me and how POP (in the branch that I was) exhibited many cult or cult-like characteristics. While all members were technically allowed to leave it was never that simple. This may be hard for people who have not experienced it to understand, but to leave was like abandoning your family, your faith, and your way of life. There were so many psychological, emotional, and even financial controls to keep members from leaving. Shame was a tactic often used to control. <br /><br />Most members lived in the same neighborhood, many of the members worked in businesses together, almost all the children were home schooled together, clothes/ toys/ etc. were often shared among families, meals were shared weekly, meetings were held several times a week. All these elements of community on the surface were great. Everyone took care of each other. Yet, it often just served to further control members. The more dependent they were on the community the more barriers there were to leaving. <br /><br />POP was the family and there were often efforts to separate individuals from their biological families if those individuals were living "lives contrary to the community". There was a clear hierarchy among the families that I felt even as a child. I often heard the phrase "It takes a village to raise a child", and that idea was prevalent among members. I spent nearly as much time with the other members of the community as I did with my own siblings.<br /><br />(Continued)Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-9285383381622062802016-07-13T18:08:42.026-07:002016-07-13T18:08:42.026-07:00I am so glad to have found this blog- thank you! W...I am so glad to have found this blog- thank you! Where-the-heck-is-the-guidebook is SPOT on, and it's noteworthy that she is a woman. The Work of Christ Community destroyed my family; my children were very damaged, especially my son. I wanted to send him to a special school for learning disabilities, so my then-husband discussed it with our "head". He said no- without asking me my input, talking with my son, or anything. After ten years in the community, and without having made the public commitment, I left, having gone through the "correct" and burdensome process that they laid out. My husband was furious with me, and his abuse ramped up several notches (abuse that, when reported earlier to our coordinator, was dismissed). One of the topics of a community men's conference was How to Deal with a Strong-Willed Wife. <br />We are now divorced, and my children and I are still recovering from this hellish experience. <br />Thank you again for giving us a voice!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-76123043974220142742016-04-26T01:43:04.681-07:002016-04-26T01:43:04.681-07:00Thank you! We are all gods children and we are sup...Thank you! We are all gods children and we are supposed to love everyone! no judgements beacause we have no right to do so! If you have restrictions for being a woman is not equal! Its like... If it looks like a pig acts and sounds like a pig its most likely a pig! Sooo if it looks like a cult acts and sounds like one well you get what im sayin! This world is so corrupt we should focus on sharing the peace and love of God thats in us all! No force,no guilt,and judgments for leaving a church!it could be the Lord changing your path for the better!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11532332806870847283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3591053226298203040.post-25039970370073362092016-02-12T12:24:42.129-08:002016-02-12T12:24:42.129-08:00I stumbled across this blog years after leaving LO...I stumbled across this blog years after leaving LOG in Baltimore, after Dave Nodar caused its implosion. He did this by focusing totally inward on the group/cult, not being open or honest, and in selling the cult's main asset, a piece of property worth $2 million that was bought with many members donations. No one ever knew where those funds went. Other 'leaders' were similarly not candid in answering basic questions about anything of substance. These were not leaders but males who took a good thing (real community and sharing) and exerted so much control that it imploded. I remember a young adult leader from another related cult group, who preyed on the young girls in the group. It was all hushed up, leading anyone who questioned anything to feel bad or disrespectful. Even Dave Nodar's wife left him, and he continues to troll for weak people to prey on in Catonsville MD. I'd love to hear about other member's experiences as a way to bring healing to many others.Bill Baer's gay friendnoreply@blogger.com